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Big
Hope: Could you tell us something about your
role within the Torino Disobbedienti and how the the group use creativity
in their actions? Elio Gilardi: I have spent a lot of time, several years working and doing
actions with Disobbedienti. I think they have introduced a new way
of engaging in politics, that is much more based on actions, more
focused on being comunicative, creating some kind of spectacle for
the media, things that can capture the interest of the media and public.
So, they are creative in the sense that these actions have introduced
something new. BH: Could you tell us about what lead up
to that situation. Was it a result of the violence at the demonstrations
in Genova? EG: Well, no, the Disobbedienti began a couple of years before Genova. So,
I think, by the time of Genova, this situation was over. Because in
Genova the violence on the part of the police was just too high and
didn't allow for that kind of activism to be realised. These actions,
this way of political activism was only possible when there had been
a sort of comunication between the two parts of the fight, and in
Genova there was nothing of the kind, there was just a big fight and
a lot of violence from the police. So this way of using creativity
in political actions was from before Genova. Genova was the end of
it. BH:
Can you give us some example of how this creativity has manifested
itself in demonstrations? EG: Well, you asked before what led up to the formation of this tactic –
it was because before that there had been fighting between the police
and demonstrators people were wearing balaclavas or helmets and throwing
stones. So real fighting was a characteristic of these demonstrations.
The Disobbedienti decided to try to change this way, setting up a
different kind of conflict. An example of this can seen in the props
they used to create this fight, but it was only a simulated fight,
with big inflated rubber stuff all around their body, paper shields,
colourful plastic helmets and using waterguns. Things that somehow
showed the appearance of a conflict with the police, but was ultimately
only a simulation. BH: How did the police react to having water shot at them? EG: In the beginning they didn't know how to react, that was the funniest
thing. They ran away, so Disobbedienti succeded in achieving what
the real kinds of military confrontation hadn't been able to achieve. BH: Couldn't that backfire because of the provocation against the police? EG: Well, no. There was a level of violence in it but it was really different.
It was much more controlled. And also these tactics were able to involve
much more people, and that was very important because as opposed to
real fight situations you didn't need to be fit or very strong or
tough to participate in this kind of virtual provocation. So even
if there was some violence, it was controlled somehow. BH: Two years ago I lived in Leipzig. Quite often there were demonstrations
that were mainly leftist groups organising against right wing groups
that tried to make marches to celebrate some national days and quite
often these demonstrations came to some inevitable point when some
violence with the police kicked off. There was always a lot of violence
with people throwing stones, making barricades and burning rubbish
bins. One time I saw that some cars were smashed and burnt and some
shop windows were smashed. I remember one time after all the action
had finished, walking through the city centre and seeing some old
people looking on at this carnage of burnt cars and smashed shop windows,
and just totally not understanding what on earth was going on and
I remember wondering what all that violence really achieved when ultimately,
the general public, who didn't see what had been going on would come
away with quite a negative impression of the demonstrators. So when I went to Italy, and met the Disobbedienti group, I found it really
refreshing that people were trying to make some positive and creative
means of demonstrating, for example, for the demonstration against
the immigrant detention centre in Torino, you involved the 'Pink Bloc'
from London and Amsterdam to create a kind of carnival atmosphere,
making a big parade with lots of drummers that went to the detention
centre and painted on the walls, so it was a very colourful spectacle.
The public response was quite a contrast to what I just described
in Leipzig in that a lot of people came out onto their balconies and
lined the streets, clapping and dancing along, so in the end it created
a much more positive atmosphere. Do you find that there is there a criticism of those tactics from more
hard-line groups in Italy? That say like, "hey, what's the point
of painting the walls and dancing in the street. That's not going
to make a big change". EG: As I told you, the Disobbedienti group can be creative but sometimes not.
What I mean by that is that sometimes they do some creative actions
but ultimately, they're always thinking about real conflicts. Even
in Genova, there was originally an idea of using creative conflict,
but always with the aim of trying to realise some objectives. Within
the Disobbedienti group there's always a big discussion about this,
because some people think that it's not always a good idea to paint
walls and go dancing and so on because that won't achieve anything
and therefore there must always be a certain level of conflict, a
level of violence and sometimes, in some situations, this level can
be low, but sometimes you have to get it higher. So when you talk
about Disobbedienti you have to know they have this idea, and that
for instance they don't like the 'Pink Bloc' that much. Disobbedienti
are always searching for a balance between conflict and consensus,
so that people and the media can listen to and agree with you, so
you can communicate. They are always trying to balance between these
two ideas. And they don't think that the Pinks are a good balance
between these things at all. After Genova, me and other likeminded people, had big problems to stay inside
the Disobbedienti movement, because we thought that the level of creativity
should be higher. we should think more about comunication with the
public, and the level of violence should be minimised, because in
Genova it was just too high and we couldn't control anything. In Italy
there is currently a big discussion about these two ways of staying
in the street and doing activism. BH:
Do you see the creativity as an ultimate strategy in itself, or a
temporary state, a tactic to comunicate with and win over elements
of the public until the arrival of an inevitable point of violence? EG: Well, I wish I could speak about this in Italian right now… but
anyway, this is a really interesting point and the main point of discussion
at the moment here in Italy and also within my group too, that is
a kind of creativity group, and I was in Genova and talked to other
Pink groups from London, Amsterdam and so on and they are discussing
the same questions. I was in Lausanne and the very day before the
demonstration, there were talking about that, whether the creativity
should stand alone, for itself or there must be a certain level of
violence. In any case, I don't think there's an answer at the moment.
We don't have an answer and neither do the others. As a small group
we think that we have to relate ourselves to the other groups and
we have to go on thinking about it together. History tells us that
the conflict must be strong, the idea of revolution is ultimately
a violent situation and requires large scale collaboration between
groups. Some people from other Pink, creative groups in Lausanne for
example thought that as you are just a part of it, you have to support
and help the groups that are more violent, you have to do some things
that the police won't understand, just to support those groups that
really do the important stuff. I don't agree, but that's what some
of the Pink groups have been discussing. BH:
I remember on that particular demonstration against the detention
centre in Torino there was a conflict between some people that didn't
agree with the Pink method of demonstration. They stood on the road,
blocking the march and confronted the whole demo with a banner that
said: "Don't paint the wall, smash the wall". EG: You have to remember that in Italy there's a long history of big groups,
small groups that are always in conflict with each other, I don't
know if it's the same in the north of Europe. But in Torino like any
other Italian city, there's always conflict, so this situation was
just one of these stupid conflicts. BH: Do you think that can be resolved or will it always be a sticking point? EG: No, I don't think we will get suck at this point. I mean, I respect any
form of self-expression, and if you want to express yourself by smashing
cars, well, we can talk about that, or we can talk about whether we
want to do things together or alone, but I respect other opinion,
other ways of doing things, we can share ideas, political ideas and
so on. In that particular situation I didn't agree with those people
standing there... I mean, if there were people who wanted to smash
the walls then, why not just go ahead and do it, instead of telling
us what we should do. BH:
In creating a situation in the street that grabs public attention,
using props – that being the 'propmaker' of Torino Disobbedienti
- have quite often been made by you, a lot of the actions of the Disobbedienti
have the appearance of what are important performance actions in art
history. I'm just wondering how you see that relation to a history
of politically motivated performance in contemporary art or, if you're
familiar with the actions inspired by the Situationists, whether you
consider your activism to be a kind of socially engaged art practice? EG: Well, I'm no expert in art. I know that, especially in the 60s and 70s,
artists directed a lot of attention towards social problems and made
art in the street. That expanded our idea of where we can express
ourselves in a creative way and from then, I think, art is quite often
seen on the streets. This can be a direct inspiration to more people
to be active in expressing their own ideas too. BH:
In 2002 there was a big art festival in Torino, the biennial of young
artists, called Big Social Game, where the organisers tried to invite
artists and projects that somehow related to the social situation
in Torino. Some projects did attempt some real engagement with local
people and situations but a lot involved artists coming to Torino
with a premade idea that could have been presented in any city. The
works often addressed similar issues that you are dealing with but,
in comparison with the very specific goals of each of your actions,
some of those projects could be seen as being quite soft. I just would
like to know your reflections on those projects and their effectiveness? EG: Well, I think you said it all and I agree with you that some of those
projects were merely artistic interpretations of social problems,
or the reality of Italian society. It's interesting but that's all,
I don't perceive that kind of art as social art. Some projects weren't
really inside the city enough, but some of them were really good.
I remember a couple of them, the ones we followed from closer, the
'Expertbase' project by 'Everyone is an Expert', or the 'Reroute'
project that a group did with immigrants in Torino. Over the last
few years large numbers of immigrants have been arriving in Torino,
so that one was an interesting work. But in general, it was good to
have the biennial, because a lot of these kind of activities are not
considered as art in Italy, so it was encouraging to see this variety
of projects, these ways of seeing art, even if there were the problems
we mentioned about some of them. BH:
I want to ask about another kind of creativity, namely music, which
is the theme that we are presenting here in the installation. So we
are trying to present some protest songs, songs that have some political
content, and we're asking a lot of different people to think of or
propose a song that somehow helped shape their own political consciousness,
or was a good reflection of their existing views. Can you think of
any songs that did those things for you? EG: Well, at the moment the creativity group that started in Genova, has changed
its approach a bit. Now we are working on samba. Samba began in Brasil,
amongst the slaves, as a method of protest - taking to the streets.
So that historical element is one of the reasons for doing it. Also,
we can't imagine any songs or music other than samba, that can be
so comunicative, can as effectively bring people together in politics
and action, so we have decided that for the moment at least, playing
samba songs is a good way of demonstrating. BH:
What do you think of traditional protest songs where the lyrics are
full of poetic or even direct political commentary or reflection or
are trying to encourage people to get involved somehow? EG: We don't play those kind of songs anymore. These days, I don't think they're
that effective in involving people, making them feel like taking action
or participating. In my opinion, in my life, they're really not so
important. I mean they are good to play in your house but not good
for activism and actions anymore. BH:
I just wanted to ask a question about the Italian traditions in this
field, as there is the huge tradition of cantautori, with very powerful
and popular songs with more or less direct political content. I wonder
if these songs have ever been used for activist purposes, have been
sung together at demos - not now maybe, but maybe some decades ago. EG: The tradition of these politically conscious cantautori and songs goes
back to the war of liberation in 1945. Ever since then they have been
sung by loads and loads of people and we still play these songs. They
are are a really strong means of preserving the history and consciousness
of the war of liberation and the subsequent leftist movement. They
are very strong and in the last few years, we have a played them from
a truck with a big sound system at every single demonstration, songs
like 'Bella Ciao' for example. People still feel something when they
hear these songs, so this tradition isn't over, it's still strong. BH:
You said before that samba is a good way of demonstrating. Somehow
this must be a very different way of demonstrating than it used to
be during the years when the communists were very strong in Italy,
when it was popular for people to sing old leftist songs together
- so I think that the fact that you consider samba to be a good way
of demonstrating, must be a sign of a big change in the attitude of
people towards political actions, as I suppose that samba is not based
on the content but much more on the capacity of music to create a
community, or to make people to feel good together.
EG: You're right, it is much more of a method, much more of a practice, a
music that makes you feel the revolution inside yourself, rather than
stimulating your analitical thinking. So it's completely different
from our tradition of revolutionary songs. BH: That is to say it is not about that kind of revolution anymore? EG: It's more a way of expressing yourself, of being creative in political
actions. Those songs we were talking about are a tool that make you
feel part of a history, part of a big group, where everybody is listening
to the same songs and everybody feels the same way, about being revolutionary
people. Samba is a way of comunicating with other people, it's a way
of creating unity and at the same time being creative, because it's
not just samba, it's samba combined with action. BH:
Didactically we could say that samba allows you space to be an active
individual, while everyone singing the same song together makes you
a part of a mass – all with the same words in their mouths and
the same thoughts in their brains? EG: Well, I don't know. It's certainly a different thing to express yourself
by singing in a demonstration. As the Disobbedienti did a few years
ago when setting up of the 'theatre of conflict' with the police,
incorporating samba creates a different way to express ourselves.
It's important for our continuation to change the way of creating
these conflicts. BH:
Is there any discussion about the name of the movement, as Disobbedienti
means disobedience, which is a rather negative concept. When should
disobbedience end, if ever? EG: One thing should be clear: Disobbedienti is a huge movement, a national
network of groups and ours is just a small group that is related to
Disobbedienti, but we are not The Disobbedienti. So concerning the overall strategies
of the movement, they are discussing the levels of violence, conflict
and communication. When I'm talking about samba and creative strategies,
I'm just referring to the small creative group within the Torino Disobbedienti
that I'm involved with at the moment. BH:
Thanks Elio. And since we want to play some music on the radio programme
to go with the interview, could you suggest a song that we could play? EG: Well, it won't be easy to find, it's not original samba that we play but
a kind of European version - you might find something on the Internet
like 'samba reggae'. Otherwise anything by Batu Kada is okay. Elio
Gilardi is a member of the creative 'Pink' group of the politcial
activist group, Torino Disobbedienti. |
